Taxes and the middle class
Submitted by Elroy on Sun, 05/18/2008 - 13:21
It has always amazed me as to why Canadians quietly accept the constant increase in taxation while sitting by idly watching the gradual erosion of our lifestyle. Canadians have one of the highest per capita taxation rates in the western world and yet what do you see all around us. The health care system is severely broken with a shortage of doctors and hospital beds, longer and longer wait times for tests and surgeries and yet the costs are over $0.60 of each provincial tax dollar. Gas is taxed at 32% rate and yet potholes still abound along with traffic chaos due to the curtailment of automotive arteries for the last 30 years. The city of Toronto is no longer known as the cleanest and safest city in NA. Gun crime is up, panhandlers rule the streets and gangs gobble up the young at an alarming rate. We have to have special clean up days to make the city presentable. Politicians spend with no thought to ethics only their insatiable appetites, see Toronto City Council, Toronto Public and Catholic School Boards to name a few. The auditor general at both the Federal and Provincial levels of Government annually surface shocking evidence of the repetitive misuse of public money see, Gun registration program costs, Sponsorship funding fiasco that got the Liberals thrown from office etc, etc.
A middle class family is now one who grosses between $100,000 and $150,000 a year with two wage earners. This puts them in one of the highest tax brackets, even though to own a medium sized house, two cars (with 2 working a necessity) afford day care and put food on the table and purchase everyday needs they require this amount to stay afloat. Finally let’s look at jobs, Canada and specifically Ontario has one of the highest personal and Corporate tax rates within the Global Market. Companies are closing and moving elsewhere for a variety of reasons but rest assured this is one of the main ones. Outside of the auto industry (which by the way is constantly being propped up by the government with more tax dollars) the manufacturing industry in the GTA and Toronto is disappearing rapidly. Less jobs, less services, less disposable cash, more crime, more traffic, and a bloated bureaucracy are the things we see all around us and yet....complacency.
All over the world throughout history wherever socialism (high taxation and redistribution of wealth) has been tried is has failed and yet we slowly march down this well traveled road again. There is an answer and it is the same one that made us one of the most prosperous in the world......but I think I’ll leave that for another day.
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Taxes and the Middle Class
I've got so many problems with what you have to say that I don't really know where to begin!! If we were in a room discussing this together I'd surely walk out (but not before using some very unladylike profanities!!!!)
You say that we Canadian's quietly accept tax increases while idly watching erosion of our lifestyle? Take a look out your window buddy. We live in Canada and we are so blessed to have been born here.
You speak of the erosion of our health care system. At least we have a health care system!!! I go to the doctor and don't pay a cent. Do you know what the cost of a check up is? The cost of an ultrasound to make sure your unborn baby is growing at a healthy rate? The cost of an MRI? The cost of an xray?
No. If you live in Canada you have no idea what those things cost because they are free to us. I think OHIP should publish these costs so that Canadians can see exactly what it is we're paying taxes for....so that people will stop whining about how much they pay in taxes.
Yes, we have a shortage of doctors. The answer does not lie in reducing taxes. If it did it would involve us paying for medical services. Is that what you want??
Are eliminating the wait times for procedures here worth the big money that it would cost to get you the treatment somewhere else quicker. Maybe to someone like yourself, who is lucky enough to have they money to pay, it is.
There are problems in our health care system. But really look at the worldwide stats my friend and you will see that we are very VERY lucky people.
Next....gas taxes and yet we have pot holes. Have you ever looked into the price of gas in European countries?? Hey, I'm not defending the price of gas.
It sucks and it makes you think twice about using your vehicle.
Hmmmm....makes you think. Are those taxes more about trying to get people to pursue other, more environmentally friendly forms of transportation?
The price of gas has nothing to do with the potholes in your regional roads.
Crime rate up......lets look at the root of that.
Misuse of public money.....is this new??
2 working adults in a family means that 2 cars in the family is a necessity???
This all in the same story where you start by talking about the erosion of our lifestyles??? Oh please........2 cars are NOT a necessity. 1 car isnt as long as there is public transit. A convenience, yes. A necessity, NO!!!
I heard a panel discussion recently on homelessness. One man said that he was concerned that panhandlers chose to beg for money on the streets because they feel a sense of entitlement. (my son was watching this with me and as soon as commercial break came I was quick to discuss this with him)
A homeless street person begging for change because they feel "entitled".
Ah, yes....entitled to that five or ten bucks that they manage to scrounge by the end of a long cold dirty day. Oh they've really ripped us off haven't they.
Oh brother.
To me, the person with a decent job and a few bucks in their bank account who whine about the taxes they have to pay for their roads, sewers, water, social services, healthcare....who judge people less fortunate than themselves....those are the people who have this sense of "entitlement" that makes them feel so much superior to others.
For what its worth, I'd rather sit and have a coffee and a chat with the panhandler than I would with that person.
Free Health Care. Sign me up!
I don't deny looking out my window every day and thanking the good lord for the air I breathe and the sun that shines down on my face.
But, I also know when to give myself a pat on the back for the house I live in, the roads I drive down and the health care that I pay for!
Good! I'm afraid many people
Good! I'm afraid many people take these things for granted.
And,yes, you should pat yourself on the back for the things you've achieved.
You've been blessed to have the strength and opportunity to acheive these things. (special emphasis on 'opportunity')
I don't think there is a person in the world who would not want exactly what you have described.
First I must say that you can
First I must say that you can usually spot someone who cannot debate a point with logic because they first get very angry and possibly storm out of a room, or they attack people personally (ala whining etc). They also denigrate people they feel may have money (ie LUCKY...rather than they have worked hard all their lives to make that money). If you did stop and take the time to think about the things I wrote I suspect you may find some truth there but it would require an open mind, not one that seems to be closed tightly shut.
This is funny. You accuse me
This is funny. You accuse me of being unable to debate a point with logic and yet I addressed every one of your points with examples. You have not addressed any of the points I raised, apart from those that you perceived as an insult or personal attack on you. Hmmm interesting.....seems I've struck a chord.
I've thought about what you've said, with an open mind as I always do and I'm sorry but I can find no truth or worth in your words whatsoever.
I feel sorry for you ......because it's clear that you really don't see how insensitive, elitist and closed minded you really are.
I hate to give up on people.....but b-bye Elroy.
Broke
At least now I know when I can't afford to pay any more tax, I can go on welfare and afford to have 2 to 3 more kids. Isn't it great!!!!
You go right ahead and give
You go right ahead and give that a try.....then we'll talk.
Health Care (yeah right you're not paying)
I was reading this and found it funny how it was said that "I go to the doctor and don't pay a cent!" That would be true if you don't make enough money to be privileged, lucky, to pay taxes. The truth is, close to 55 cents of every dollar you send to Queens park goes directly to paying for health care. Do you not remember the OHIP tax that was implemented a few years back. And yes, if you make more you pay more. It seems that in your opinion, because I like to have a certain standard of living, the convenience of a second car that I am evil. Why don't we all go to live in, say, Cuba. They have a great health care. Apparently one of the best. Everyone is equal, equally poor. Oh yeah, if Cubans want to come to Canada, well they can't, at least not legally. Why is the freedom to make money and live a good life so bad. There are certain people in society, our society that needs to be taken care of. People fall on hard times. We need to help those people, not by giving them cheque after cheque, month after month. But point them in the right direction for them to help themselves. We've all heard the saying, "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll eat whenever he wants." Today its too easy to fail because we know that we have this safety net, the government. People have kids with no financial security, It costs a lot to have a child. So who is paying for those kids. I am, we are and the kids who are born into these families. I use the term family loosely. A 25 year old mother on welfare may not have constituted a family 20, 30 years ago, but I guess it does today. When Mike Harris cut the welfare payments, the Left called it, "inhumane." We heard, "How can people live on this little money." They were right! You're not supposed to live on it. You're supposed to use it to have the bare minimum to survive. People on welfare should not have the luxuries that we have. Then and only then, will they realize that if I get off my ass and better myself and deserve to enjoy that can of Canadian. But they should not be enjoying it on my dime!!
Are you Elroy's
Are you Elroy's brother?
You're implying here that only the well off (or 'lucky') pay taxes and this is just not the case. People on welfare pay taxes too...and sometimes in a way that is not so obvious. For example,they pay rent to a landlord who,when pressured by rising property taxes, must raise the rent that they charge.
You say that 55 cents for every dollar goes to healthcare spending.I am very aware that the taxes that I'm paying go to such services. I think I've made that very clear. What I've been saying is that this cost doesn't even come close to what I would be paying if I had to pay for every visit to the doctor, for every xray, for every ultrasound or MRI. I went so far as to say that we should receive a bill showing us what OHIP is paying for the medical services that we've accessed so that we can truly appreciate this service.
You speak of children who are brought into this world with no financial security in place for them. This is nothing new!!!!!?? Come on! This
has been happening for hundreds and hundreds of years!!!!! What's changed is that governments have seen the effects of children in our society who are born into these circumstances. Crime rates, school performance, health issues.
This is why western governments have developed a social assistance network to assist in these situations.
Your words imply that the amount of money social assistance recipients receive, allows them to enjoy the luxuries in life that you (who has worked so hard and earned such status) enjoy. This is not the case. You say that they should receive the bare minimum to survive. Well, they do. In fact, in my 17 years in the field, I continue to be astounded at how they manage to survive at all!!!
It deeply concerns me that your examples of welfare recipients often refer to the single mother....and you do it in a very condescending manner.
For example, you say that 20-30 years ago a mother on welfare may not have constituted a family but now apparently they do. What does that mean??
A family is a family. Is the single mother and her kids any less of a family than this.........the family where dad goes off to work every day while mom stays home and cleans and does laundry and feeds the kids snacks when they get home from school and then dad comes home and beats the crap out of mom because he wanted chicken instead of spaghetti and then beats the kids because they left their bikes on the driveway?????
I'll say this...in the 17 years I've been working in social services, I've found that its the single moms who are most inspired to 'get off their asses' and do something to better themselves. The single moms and immigrants. They want a better future.
You seem to think that the government 'safety net' is keeping people from getting out there and doing things. Well, as lucky as we are to have that safety net, its not very safe. A person on welfare is certainly not living the high life. Not even close. Do some research and you'll see that they are definitely not enjoying the luxuries that we are. (apart from health care, good roads....but, hey if you think they dont deserve that then you and i are on a different planet).
I would like to know what your alternative is. How would you propose to ensure our countries children are well cared for, while instilling in all citizens, the importance of contributing to society. Please tell me.
While I do empathize with many of the points you make (i'm a taxpayer too!), I cannot help but be very very bothered by many of your comments that come across as judgemental, elitist and drenched in a sense of entitlement.
Entitlement!
I get up every weekday morning and go to work. At the end of the week I get paid. If I want something I save for it. I have started my own business to make more money. Do you know who I am? I am the person who pays for the social services. When it snows, I pay for the snow plower. When a government grant goes to an art project, yup, that's my money. When a "family" on welfare has a third kid, that's me paying for his clothes, school and anything else he needs. You mentioned that people on welfare pay taxes, How? Right, with my money! Do you know what I have learned from starting my own business, I pay more taxes. The longer hours and more work that results in getting ahead means I pay more taxes. More taxes that go into social programs. You think I am drenched in entitlement? The only thing I am drenched in is taxes! Am I judgmental? Maybe, but I have paid for that right every time I get gas at $1.30 instead of 85 cents. Every time in April I stress about income tax, I have earned that right! You say I come across as an elitist. No, that's frustration because there are too many people in government and society that thinks throwing more money, my money at a problem is the solution. There are too many people that think we should all hug and there problems will magically go away. I am the tax payer! Even worse, I am middle class. Oh yeah, I am also a white male. I am the most discriminated person in Canada. Your comment about the father coming home to beat his house wife and kids, were is that coming from. I have heard in the news more than ever about mother's killing their families, its not just males! Or maybe it was the father that drove her to it, right. You also said people have been bringing children into this world without financial security for hundreds of years. Slavery has happened for hundreds of years, is that right? I know the importants of contributing to society, I don't want to carry it on my shoulders!!!
Entitlement
I also go to work every day and get paid and pay taxes. I'm glad to do it to live in one of the best countries in the world. I'd like to give back to society a little of what I'm fortunate enough to have.
I explained how people on welfare do pay taxes. Look again.
So, you have your own business and pay a lot of taxes. I bet you get some pretty sweet tax breaks too. I'm sure you don't commit any white collar crime by writing things off that really have nothing to do with your business though. But you know, a lot (LOT) of people do. Somehow that form of fraud is never equated with welfare fraud. No, that's somehow accepted with an understanding nod, or even a 'good for you'. Its socially acceptable.
You may not be drenching in entitlement, but your attitude sure is.
No one.....no one....earns the right to be judgemental. That statement alone confirms you believe you are entitled.
I sincerely hope that nothing ever happens to you and you need to come to the public for help.
Debate
I find it amazing how you can personally attack me. You have implied that all business men are criminals. Were do you think the money comes from for these social programs. If we didn't have people to make money and pay taxes then you'd be out of a job. That's why Canada is great. Anyone can come here and make it, with a little hard work they can be middle class like me and get aggravated by how the socialists think that we are the bad guys. You come down on me for being judgmental. I have not judged you once. You have called me an elitist, all but accused me of fraud. I was having a debate, I do not come here to get personally attacked. I've read the other post you have written, you attack anyone that doesn't agree with you. I would hope your bias does not affect your job. You seem to have a loathing for anyone that does not drink your koolaide. Consider this my last post in response to anything you write.
P.S. Yes you did try and explain how welfare recipients pay taxes, just not very well!
In no way whatsoever did I
In no way whatsoever did I imply that any business person is a criminal any more so than YOU implied that any welfare recipient is a criminal. My point was, and is, that fraud by business people is more socially acceptable than fraud by welfare recipients.
Further, I've not personally attacked you in any way more than you've personally attacked me. You've made assumptions and implications. (for example that i'm a bleeding heart liberal...words you didnt use but were certainly implied)
I, on the other hand, wrote what I felt about you.
Finally, i will always argue those whose arguments are judgemental towards people less fortunate. So, if you dont like that, I'm perfectly ok with you never responding to this blog again.
b-bye have a nice life